Density / Urban Sprawl

I wouldn’t be so quick to generalize. There’s pent up demand for urban living in Raleigh, and some people are going to extreme lengths to acquire it. Just because the balance of the county is living in suburban-style developments doesn’t mean they all love it (cost, family needs, etc. all play into this). That said, it does appeal to many, I’m not trying to downplay that.

Back on topic, I think it’s time to put the brakes on our hopes for office development downtown and focus on increasing its residential population, as mentioned above.

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Agreed. Like it or not there is likely going to be a long-term shift in demand for office space due to the pandemic but I think plenty of people still want an urban living experience. I think Raleigh stands to benefit from that trend because it’s still less expensive to live here compared to some large metros but has many of the same benefits, plus of course the beaches and mountains not far away.

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Of course you missed the whole point. Very very few people live downtown relative to the rest of Wake County. Only about 1% of all of Wake County lives downtown. The real pent up demand is everywhere not just particularly downtown.

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Here’s my two cents (maybe dollars in this case)

Over the last few decades, like it or not - the development of Downtown Raleigh has been handicapped by not having direct interstate access. It just is what it is in this case. Now with that said as @orluz said, that is also a blessing. If that North-South Freeway would have been built that would have had devastating effects on East Raleigh like every other major city where one side of the highway is “good” and one side is “bad”. Not to get too far off topic, I think Charlotte could eliminate there South and East segments of their inner loop and turn it into a Boulevard and Atlanta has a plan to Cap the Connector through Midtown and even parts of Downtown. But anyways back to the subject at hand…

Getting to the North Hills vs Downtown. I think both are necessary to making Raleigh a thriving city. North Hills definitely has a different appeal than Downtown and that’s okay. You want different districts in a city. Also we have to remember, while we all love Downtown here, there are so many ignorant people who think any Downtown is just full of homeless people, crime, traffic, etc. If real estate was the same price everywhere we would still have the majority of people who would prefer their nice suburban, car centered neighborhoods with no transit because they’re afraid of what cities are and quite frankly - just like we believe what cities should be, that’s what they believe cities would be.

I think our main goal should be making the two very distinct districts connected. If you explore aerials from Atlanta, you’ll notice, while miles apart Downtown / Midtown and Buckhead are actually connected and feel like one super long urban corridor while travelling on Peachtree St. Notice the non-stop spine of high rises along Peachtree all the way from Buckhead to Midtown.

Taking a page from that, I think we could create a similar feel and flow of one long urban corridor from Downtown South straddling Saunders St connecting to Downtown, then straddling the West St extension, straddling Atlantic / Wake Forest up to St. Albans where we will have some pretty good density with Midtown Exchange and North Hills. This of course is very ambitious and will take time but it’s needed.

On to connectivity, while the commuter rail line from Garner to West Durham is a start, it doesn’t really move the needle. While it will help rush hour on 40 from the Southeast, I can’t see any other impacts traffic wise. I really think we’re overstating it’s RTP impact due to it’s vastness of how RTP has developed and with many RTPers living in Chapel Hill / West Cary / Apex / Wake Forest / North Raleigh the line does absolutely nothing for them . Last mile connectivity is essential here if there’s any chance of even capturing Garner / Durham commuters to use it. Also, Commuter rail is just that, commuter. Most only operate during the peak weekday hours. So it’s a great start but it’s just the tip of the iceberg! We will need a comprehensive transit plan such as this…

On to connectivity, while I am in no way advocating for a highway through downtown or any of our neighborhoods, we do need to explore enhancing connectivity to downtown to keep up.

Starting with our south approach, until you get to our money shot, S. Saunders is an eyesore coming off I-40. First impressions matter to visitors and ease of access matters to office people just as much. I’m pretty sure this is covered in our master plan and Downtown South will definitely help but at this point we’re already looking at 50,000 vehicles per day on this corridor and developments will cause for oversaturation of even the 6-lane road we have today. Coupled with the traffic signals that’d make Saunders a more desirable and safe corridor with our developments would just lead to a slog. Looking at Wilmington St, we have a pretty unobstructed straight shot from 40 to Downtown with a pretty good view too. Add Downtown facing ramps, Eliminate the signal with City Farm Rd and grade separate and you have a limited access parkway leading straight into our two most important downtown streets.
Then you can turn Saunders into the 4-lane slower speed development filled neighborhood corridor it deserves to be while also eliminating strain and pressure on it and Blount / Person. Here’s a very rough sketch, would need some more advanced ramp braiding etc

Just think of the benefits to Saunders and Blount / Person!
On to from the North, currently there are two signals coming down Capital just after 440 and one more a little further down, eliminate those with some grade separations and you have another straight shot into down town solving both of our main access issues without any new highways.
From the West, there’s really nothing you can do about Wade Ave.
From the East, connecting 87 directly to New Bern at the hospital gives Eastern Wake direct access without that weird quirky hitch they have to make now.
Read more about that idea here

Pulling this all together, we can’t think of this as Midtown vs Downtown, Urban vs Suburban or anything. Have to think of this as One Raleigh. And I have to say, Raleigh does sprawl better than any other city I’ve been to honestly. The planning departments actually try to have somewhat of a grid system and connect the subdivisions, minor roads, major roads much more effectively than other cities, where they just branch off whatever road they’re on with one entrance and exit and the minor roads just snake wherever. This sets us up much better. All in all, we are in tons better shape than most cities and hopefully we can continue to densify our urban core while growing out smartly and creating a cohesive downtown / midtown / DTS.

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One of the best, most well-reasoned “aspirational” posts I’ve seen on this website. Bravo, my dude.

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ATL, you are wasting your talents on here, please apply for the city manager job right away and get your ideas implemented. Outstanding analysis.

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Currently there is the Uber/Lyft subsidized program for trips from/to RTC. It will reimburse up to $10. Pretty convenient. I’ve used it for commutes.

The NRX bus was made for North Raleigh RTP commuters. I’m not sure off the top of my head what the ridership is. I believe it is not running now due to COVID.

I think it would be good to compare the success of that route vs the light rail when it starts. We would need to take into consideration the NRX is between N Raleigh and RTP while the rail would also feed downtown and Durham directly.

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Thanks! I was hoping it wasn’t too much rambling! Haha
As an outsider just coming in, I think a lot here lose focus of just how great Raleigh is, can be, and will be compared to some other cities.

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I’d love to do work for the city one day. I’m a traffic engineer but want to get more into the urban planning side once I really establish my career.

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Won’t say “I wish RTP was more dense” because RTP is so huge for economy and if it was any different it may not be as successful but I think it’s going to really hard to convince most people to use multiple modes.

Commuters to / from Raleigh and Durham’s downtowns will be good with commuter rail since most if not all of downtown is walkable from the station so no using multiple modes.

I love this so much (and clearly, so do a lot of people here) and kinda want this to happen. But I have a question that I promise is genuine and legit:

What is novel or innovative about this?

Sure, it’s never been marketed under the banner of one, ambitious portfolio except for that one time in the Amazon HQ2 debacle. Still, almost all the parts of such a plan are already in the works, not to mention the geographic distribution of existing developments, traffic, and businesses. Aren’t we, in a way, already doing the hard part of making this integrated corridor idea into an imperative?

A rundown of projects along this central corridor, for those of y'all who don't look at every thread on this site (click me!)

In case you don’t look through every thread on this site, I want to refer you to these threads (or project websites):

Aside for the one starred area (i.e. between Peace St. and through Five Points), every area in the above list has at least one major project under construction, in planning/design/rezoning, or is otherwise being seriously considered with real investments already on the line.

As for how to connect these different locations? The recently-adopted Wilmington St. BRT corridor LPA and soon-to-start-being-planned Capital Blvd. BRT corridor would almost perfectly work as the backbones for this corridor. Commuter rail could work, too, but as Phil pointed out, hours are restricted. It’ll take time to get all of these components in place (let alone playing well together), but our local government is already putting in the work for this.

Maybe it’s just me and my weird personal biases or I misunderstood something, but I thought it was obvious to treat this entire corridor as one ecosystem that’s both urban and suburban (and to not see those things as dual opposites) :sweat_smile: Was that not how the rest of y’all perceived how things are going around here?

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I guess it is not expressly stated as building a corridor to North Hills but that is definitely what is happening. Like you said the BRT planning and then TOD that will go with it has to end up creating a formal plan for the corridor though. That is just the last BRT getting planned.

Maybe I missed it, but there have not been many direct convos on here about how the city will grow and connect different parts. We talk about downtown, DTS, North Hills, and different specific developments, but not general growth or corridor plans. I always think of the developments around the Loading Dock area as part of filling in a corridor heading ~generally towards NH.

It would be interesting to keep up with where the city plans to grow and how that is or is no happening.

The corridor that comes to my mind as actually growing in a kind of connected way since I moved here has actually been Hillsborough St leaving downtown. That street has really filled in (admittedly w/ student housing) and has great transit service and sidewalk life almost all the way to 440. If there was a corridor like Hillsborough St is heading to NH that would be an amazing amount of connection.

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It’s my hope that it’s obvious to those running the show down at City Hall but you never know!
My fear is that even after all those projects, the little gaps that will be left in between (DS to Downtown, N of Deveraux to East end area, driving down Wake Forest / Atlantic) will still make things feel “spotty” or as I refer to Atlanta development “dart board developments”.

But Rome wasn’t built in a day! I just hope whoever is in charge is looking at things like this.

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I know most don’t like it because it’s a throng of college students but for an outsider coming in, this is actually the approach that makes me most feel like I’m entering a big city. It has a really good feel and they’ve done a great job with the Hillsborough St road diet and just overall vibrancy of the area!

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The Wake Forest Rd and Atlantic stretch coming off Capital Blvd reminds me of the area around the Lynbrooke Marta station back in 2009. I graduated from Tech and a few friends lived at an apartment next to Marta and it was a really random hodgepodge. The only thing to walk to was a strip club called Tattle Tales lol. There was a Home Depot, Target, Home Goods, and Chick-fil-a and a lot of stuff ways up the road. Now there are just apartments and new stuff everywhere around it.

The area around Capital Blvd leaving town is a tricky one. I think it is all zoned to be buildable at pretty high density, but I think it is all in a flood plain and no one seems to want to build there. To get to better land you get into neighborhoods that will fight it hard.

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Before your arrival in Raleigh, and here in this DTRaleigh community, there was a lot of chatter about your very concern. While I think that there is definitely excitement about DTS across the participant community, I think that a lot of folks would have prefered that this sort of investment was either in DT proper or immediately adjacent to it, to densify or expand the DT footprint.

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Yep, which is why Downtown South is so important to the city why the commuter rail plan needs to move forward. Just look at the success of South End in Charlotte.

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I wish we were getting Light Rail or even a streetcar network along with Commuter rail for this reason.
The light rail has stops every few blocks and runs all day into the night which is why it’s been huge for Charlotte, while the commuter rail only runs during rush hour and has stops every few miles.

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The difference with Southend in Charlotte is that it doesn’t have any “blockers” in the way between them and uptown. The area between dtraleigh and DTS is pinched and blocked, especially by a freaking cemetery. There’s no real natural way of connecting the urban experience south to north without making some serious decisions that will likely be very messy, both politically and socially.

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Isn’t south end and uptown Charlotte bisected by 277?